But its easy tell which one of you are the idiots, and those of us that actually know are trying to skate uphill teaching those that dont. AND.carry what YOU are comfortable and accurate with. The .223 generates a far larger shock wave, and penetrates farther, than the .22. Practice thats all it takes. Shot with 300 win mag at 500 yards. who proved the .45-caliber round has SO MUCH more knockdown power than the 9mm that it only requires one shot to incapacitate a threat? A .223 is just 55 grains. Sorry for the rant. 10..again 10 rounds landed on target. You must have JavaScript enabled in your browser to utilize the functionality of this website. Dan, your and many others comments ring true. But in the Kaos of combat (especially at dark:30) your intended target isnt usually going to present itself and just stand there for your perfect shot placement. I still prefer the .45. the difference between a 45 and a 9 millimeter and a couple milliseconds of reaction time, it really depends on the situation and again, personal preference. and love a SA trigger. Factors like these led to the military adopting the Colt .45 ACP pistol as its standard sidearm in 1911. Okay 9s are cool, hold a lot of rounds, small recoil, cheap to shoot and buy. Wound-cavity analysis tells a similar story concerning the .380 ACP, with individuals shot by the round able to function seconds to minutes after being shot. .223 Rem in 5.56 NATO is OK. For another 2+ years. 3 rounds all center mass within 2 inches of each other. 3, both hemolymph ACP and AKP activities of P. clarkii were significantly decreased in the 30 and 50 mg/L groups compared to the control (P < 0.01).Similarly, PO activity also exhibited a significant reduction in the 30 mg/L group (P < 0.05) and the 50 mg/L group (P < 0.01), respectively.However, LZM activity showed a significant increase Now lets get back to today in time and we do have very good defense ammo so most of the time Id agree that the 9mm is equal to any other round out there today for human sized targets and smaller as well. Good job! Of course, not being in the military, or law enforcement, my goal is no collateral damage! There is also the very real factor of life-or-death, fight-or-flight stress. The Department of Defense has recently been taking a hard look at the sidearms and sidearm calibers issued to today's military personnel on the front lines. Lexipol. They are both capable of inflicting mortal wounds far beyond practical range. I got it cheap and after using it and putting a few hundred rounds without any malfunction and also being very accurate. Well, depends on whom you ask. WebIn a perforating wound, the bullet creates an exit wound as it escapes the body. Likewise, there was a big Army study on gunshot wounds and ammunition effectiveness in 1946-47, in which they mentioned that something they saw again and again in Europe was that 9mm bullets were far more likely to shatter bone in a way that contributed significantly to the damage done than any other pistol caliber, including .45. But thats me. Circulatory collapse results from massive bleeding caused by bullet wounds primarily to the heart, other major organs or major blood vessels of the torso. .45 ACP damage increased from 35-40-65 to 35-40-75, and minimum damage decreased from 60% to 50%. there is no substitute for Cubic Inches. With bigger bullets, you will make bigger holes., What makes the .223 potentially deadlier than the .22 is its velocity. Dr. Peter Rhee is a trauma surgeon who operated on victims of the 2011 shooting at a political event in Tucson, Arizona, in which six people were killed and 13 wounded in a hail of 9mm bullets. Lexipol. He taught criminal law/procedure at the FBI Academy. Its why neck-down cartridges for .223 are even used. I was in the military and was law enforcement. And I am surprised that this was not mentioned. A bullet entering an enemys body does damage in two ways. Plenty of gang shootings. What do you Think of the S&W Shield? They will simply leave their buddy there to die (and hopefully be able to take one of us with him). Cyst fluid rich in lipids and inflammatory factors is a characteristic pathological manifestation of ACP and may play a very important role in hypothalamic injury caused by tumors. Just as many others I was forced throughout a 25 yr L.E. Where a bullet hits the human body is also a major factor on whether it inflicts a mortal wound. That has been the best comment so far. Leave it to a bunch of idiot Marines to bring a pistol to a rifle fight. Head on over to the Concealed Carry Podcast for great audio content. The one magor factor that keeps deciding the outcome is if the victim or assailant has the actual ability to kill. Mine is easily concealable, accurate and has never failed to function. 3 more replies -8w7- 13 hr. Everything I understand and everything I have read and looked into if persons really going to throw down its going to be less than 15 yards and closer, at that point and Im just being honest I dont even use my rear sights once I get within 10 yards of a silhouette Im just going off at the front sight Focus and thats it, I compensate for the offset not using the rear sights by dropping the front sight a couple inches lower to anticipate the recoil and it is very accurate. Real world combatants or keyboard commandos. Only high-velocity rounds (those with an impact velocity of 2,000 feet per second or more) with soft or hollow points reliably offer fragmentation. Open the tools menu in your browser. I sure do love 45acp though. Good job Chris and the rest of you but remember when you give gun advise target shooting and self defense shooting are two different scenarios and one can get you deadyou cant shoot my gun as good as me but you can shoot your gun because its the best one for you. I think the armchair warriors need to think about how a pistol is barely effective in military situations. Ricochet off. To me the rest dont count. That is those of us that has and carries guns. JavaScript seems to be disabled in your browser. unless the guy is coming at you with body armor, if you have more than three bullets in your gun you dont really have a lot to worry about. I am not aware of any hollowpoints that were designed to expand on the way to the target. Beats. What we do know, however, is that when most people are shot, they fall down. So in other words, Science is also getting a kick back just so the 9mm gets so called, scientific proof! Mabe you are just faster and things work out like the movies. Where the human component is a significant factor thats been deleted from so many test results. Of handgun owners alone, 63 percent owned these for the purpose of protecting themselves against other people, with another 20 percent owning them for protection against animals. The 45 acp caused significant damage to the human body. During the shootout, Special Agent Jerry Dove fired a lightweight, high-velocity 9mm round that struck murder/armored car robbery suspect Michael Lee Platt in the upper right arm. Most of these wanna be gangsters are cowards and are used to shooting at people who dont have guns to shoot back. Going back and reading over your original post, by the by, I can only say this: Also, there are documented cases from New York and other law enforcement agencies of officers shooting criminals and having their bullets pass entirely through the criminal and striking a civilian bystander, thus wounding someone not engaged by the police officer. And the department is no small one. With the spine on the backside with the arteries running along it, coupled with the obesity of the fast food hoodlum, that penetration was considered more key. This is important because of permanent cavitation: The greater amount of tissue that is destroyed, the greater chance of incapacitation, all other factors being equal. However, in a self-defense situation, the object isnt to kill your attacker; its to end their ability to cause you harm as quickly as possible. Ships To Store. He kicked in the door and she was able to disarm him ( He was lying next to the bathroom door. May everyone who reads this have a Blessed Day! 125 gr 9 mm PB fully jacketed bullet will generally penetrate both skins of a car door. I just make it my business to shoot all handgun cartridges well out to 25yards. Military ball ammo leaves some things to be desired. If I put p++ in my 9 mm, its going to hurt like hell! But for those of us that like to aim and make good hits Ill take the 45 as a primary with a compact 9 as a backup. Affiliate Disclosure-Terms of Use-Privacy Policy - Returns & Refunds - Shipping & Delivery - Affiliates, This story of a Chicago-suburb police officer. Kimber 1911 Rapide Dawn .45 ACP Pistol $ 1649 99 1649 dollars 99 cents. The only gun I could get to in time was a Glock 17 loaded with 115 grn jhp ammo. I have also recorded a few single-shot kills from a .45ACP, one from as far In fact, thats what civil liberty defense ammo is all about. There were 3 casings in the bathroom and a couple of more in the living room 10-12 ft away. I dont have a dog in that race but it is important to give proper information, not just anything that will satisfy your viewpoint no matter how erroneous. But the modern bullets are getting better all the time! Proper shot placement is the lamest argument based on logic. Knock down power. We traded all the 9s some years ago for the 40 which give knockdown power plus multiple rounds. Poor light and unplanned obstacles are common in real-life self-defense scenarios. Ive carried about every size round in my 71+ years of which 36 was an LEO. I even tried to do the same test with my Tuger SR9 compact and it was a worse outcome than the Walther. Practice, practice, practice. That is closet weights I can readily come up with from factory offerings. I hadnt even gotten halfway through the article before coming to the same conclusion. Even a frontal gut shot must penetrate seven or more inches in slender adults for reliable incapacitation. Practice while on the move. The two calibers no one wants to get tagged by . Were investigating how it spends its money. If you have been hit with any kind of bullet large, fast, expanding, or otherwise please, Gunman Used Heavily Restricted Assault Weapon in California UPS Shooting. If you know firearms and know how to properly use them than the caliber shouldnt matter. Second Media Inc., 30800 Telegraph Rd, Suite 1921, Bingham Farms, MI 48025 USA. Marine Force Recon Vietnam Vet. What more and more people are choosing is CAPACITY. We enjoy our 2nd amendment and want it protected and were prepared to give our life to defend our country. The average criminal etc. So banter on gentlemen. Hogwash!! They said, ja, the 9mm kills people just fine, as long as you use it the way anyone with any sense uses a pistol caliber. And while its not the final word on wound ballistics, its an important contribution to what should be an ongoing discussion. So how can we expect people to take a human life so readily? So you better have the biggest heaviest bullet going down range that you can possibly get. career to carry a Glock 9mm. You get Into a real shooting scenario. Glocks are cheap and reliable. He is the author of two published books on deadly force and an upcoming book on supervisory and municipal liability in law enforcement. Now for long engagements that are seen more in military ops and where fire suppression matters most I prefer 9mm. Projectiles do not accelerate once they leave the muzzle. There are two effects of electromagnetic waves on human body. How about that..most people shot by handguns survive. If you use .22 mag, muzzle flash is pronounced and may have some fear factor with its use. Maximum velocity is achieved only at barrel exit, then slows during flight through the viscous median known as our environment (air). Like cars and motorcycles its all a matter of preference for each individual.God Bless America and May God keep us safe so we dont ever have to be put in a situation to have to find out. Nobody I know whos had to use issue 9mm M882 Ball is terribly impressed with it, either for the way it penetrated light cover like auto bodiesadmittedly, if you are shooting at someone protected by an automobile chassis, you should have brought a rifle, if not a grenade launcher with HEAT rounds or something belt-fed with the black-tip ammo that have the depleted uranium coresor for the way bad people reacted to being shot with it, which was usually not at all for quite some time barring a hit to the brain or spinal cord, or multiple hits, as in the whole magazine and maybe another. The original design and purpose of the 1911 45, was perfect for its knock down power. 9mm capacity! Your shot placement will be perfect. The bear was shot in the head through the screen.it was a one shot stop but needed another round to finish him off. But it is no longer valid against todays terrorists, and the mindset they fight with. I have a Glock19 and Glock23 chambered .40S&W and that is a great round to. Matthew McConaughey tells the story of those killed in Uvalde in emotional plea for action on guns. Shot placement is not a variable, it is a constant. The 45 hit harder and put your target down more quickly than the 9 mm. Why dont these experts just admit that they prefer Glocks and let it go at that? My department switched to +p for 45s. This type of damage is known as permanent cavity. After all, its SIZE thats everything, right? Unfortunately, there is no valid, scientific method of analyzing actual shooting incidents. Probably not, but here is my take on the ol' 9mm vs 45 ACP debate. Thats why were here right? But, this little word but often comes up in real life. They are a secondary source at best. A majority of FBI shooters are both faster and more accurate using 9mm Luger versus .40 S&W rounds. first handgun i ever fired was glock27 .40SW she was snappy at first but 16 years later and after shooting lots of .45 and 9, i am back to .40SW for HD purposes. Being only 30 the 9mm argument was often a argument and war waged by my generation of officer. Select the option or tab named Internet Options (Internet Explorer), Options (Firefox), Preferences (Safari) or Settings (Chrome). They found that their guns wouldnt stop the insurgents charging at them, until seconds or minutes after the bullets entered their adversaries bodies. It enters the human body at energies approaching the speed of light and I immediately thought, I think Ive been shot. Took about 1Min until the shock yielded to the pain. Finally, someone mentions what type of ammo is being used. Not to suggest that a skilled shooter (and/or soldier or Marine) couldnt shoot it, but almost anybody is going to be faster with a 9mm in their hands. Most of the ballistic testing I have seen comparing the penetration of various bullets and calibers would suggest that generally, a .45ACP and 9mm are both quite comparable as far as penetration is concerned. Now call me a troll as I suspect you may be in love with your clunky Glock and .9mm round. Robert MacNemerra knew nothing about firearms but his decision that the AR-15s chrome lined bore and chamber was a needless waste of money brought a whole lot of grief to a whole lot of people. Because size is king? The difference Is not all soldiers are comfortable shooting the heavy recoiling 45 round. Which Id be inclined to think a .45 would transfer more force more immediately taking the spirit out of most. I like it and am very comfortable pulling the trigger in as high stress of a situation as training allows. well lets fac the facts ere during th banna war the marines choose the 45 acp end of story. Then, theres the venerable .357 magnum, which, though smaller than the .44, comes roaring out of a barrel at speeds as high as 1600 FPS. But you have to shoot the gun your most accurate with and most comfortable with but if you dont seat the grip of any pistol in the web of the hand deeply all guns no matter what the caliber the gun will whip in the hand. If these shootings have something in common, it is each and every one is different. 45 standard velocity is 850 to 900 fps, NOT 500 fps. Thanks for reading and applying some little used common sense to the debate. I have the perfect picture for this: Those pins stayed in place for 18 months while the bone knit. It is a poor idea to keep your finger inside the But this cartridge uses a half-grain bullet compared to 9mm. But I do like Cor- Bon, and Glaser POWRBALL BY COR-BON. The body's liver, pancreas and kidneys also can make about 1 gram of creatine per day. 9mm Luger offers greater magazine capacity and less recoil/more weapon control at a lower cost. For this reason, some dismiss magnum rounds altogether and sing the praises of the S&W .40 round, which supposedly combines the best features of the .45 ACP and the 9mm. In a military that accepts all genders and has lowered its physical fitness standards, Its not surprising that the 9mm was selected. Youve been practicing with your weapon on a consistent basis. While psychological factors incapacitate more assailants than physiological factors, they are also the primary reason for a failure to incapacitate. Lee reloading gear. Another, was a 300lb black bear. Well judging by the fact that .45 has been killing people since at least the 1870sI'd say it can really screw up your day. This was an interesting discussion. The .223 is carrying 335 foot-pounds of force, while the .22 carries 70 foot-pounds. I prefer 45 revolvers. His analysis is paramount to someone telling me the 7mm Rem Mag will outperform the 8mm Rem Mag. Somebody needs to vet their sources of information and also use a little common sense. Steel BB (0.170" ball bearing) at 200 ft/s will make a hole, but will not penetrate 4" plate glass. Their explanation (other than increasing ammo capacity): bullet technology has come a long way since 1986. It was by far the easiest serviced pistol in the field, go ahead and get the lighter frame lighter weight ceramic /plastic and all that junk its fine as long as youre in a urban environment. I like all of them. I carried an issue 45. and Privacy Policy. No vest..and since it was my idea.I Shoot First! For me the thing that has always solved this debate is simple. Browse our site today and place your order with confidence. So they fudge the data. Last summer had a large male black bear tried to enter my camper. A forum community dedicated to all 1911 firearm owners and enthusiasts. In September 2014, LooserRounds posted an article titled FBI Training Division Justifies 9mm Caliber Selection. Why arent both so much better than .223? Even the Scout Snipers are still using the .308, whereas superior platforms are using .300 Win Mags and .338 Lapuas. I think the pain element is still to much with paint balls for Obamas new policy I think dart guns with the rubber suction cups would be more his speed. We argued more capacity modern rounds ect ect. You have renewed my faith in man. If you shoot someone through the skull with a .22 rimfire and penetrate their brain, you will almost certainly immediately incapacitate them. Bullet coursing from behind the knee to my heel. WebThe Smith & Wesson Model 26 is a target style revolver chambered in .45 ACP. Heck a well placed .22 in the head can get the job done. The latest in 9mm bullet tech performs much better than in the past on windshields. Fun to shoot a couple of hundred rounds at the range, without soreness. Only two factors are within your control: the location of the wound and the amount of tissue destroyed. I shot 8 watermelons, 4 for each gun. And the quicker the better when someones fanning a gun at you. He watched MARSOC during a multi-national special forces competition, MARSOC couldnt compete with the low capacity 1911. Great article by the way. Now let me add a little something about 9mm vs .45. They also have a budget. When the. The primary result of permanent cavity damage is profuse bleeding. If you need to kill someone with a single shot, a rifle is what you need, not a handgun.. Experiences on the streets say otherwise. Which would put a bullet in the lower chest area with variance of the bullet which can be 2-3 or even 5-6. In any event, I used that data when shopping for a lighter and more easily concealed EDC than my .357 magnum revolver and hi-cap .45 ACP. Americans have this impression, I think, that comes from watching too many old movies, that a bullet fired from a handgun is supposed to flip the bad guys ten feet into the air, if not disintegrate them altogether and leave a smoking pair of haji sandals on the pavement where they were. Fire Rate: 1,000 rounds/minute. You can read all the FBI reports and all the ballistic gel crap you want. you should read TIFU my boss shot me reddit. If you find yourself in a legitimate self-defense scenario, you will likely not have the opportunity nor the wherewithal to take a careful and well-aimed shot at your assailant's head.
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45 acp damage human body